Monday, 20 June 2011

Lessons for Larry - Part One of Too Many

From Slate

Ultraconservative Catholic bishop Richard Williamson apologized to the pope this week for his "imprudent remarks" concerning the Holocaust but did not recant. The bishop accepts that some Jews died in concentration camps but claims that fewer than 300,000 were killed, rather than 6 million, and he denies that the Nazis used gas chambers. To be a Holocaust denier, do you have to deny the whole thing?

No. There's no single definition of Holocaust denial or "revisionism," but scholars generally agree that it means claiming that the Nazis had no official policy to exterminate Jews, that the gas chambers are a myth, or that the figure of 6 million murdered Jews is a gross exaggeration. At the extreme, denial can mean hiding or suppressing evidence of the Holocaust by destroying gas chambers, as the Nazis did at the end of World War II, or by burning documents. But denial can also take the form of relativization—saying that, yes, the Nazis killed Jews, but the killings of Gypsies, Poles, and Jehovah's Witnesses were just as extensive.*

David Dees is therefore a Holocaust denier. It was never in doubt, except by Larry. Although Larry claims he himself is not a Holocaust denier, he doesn't know what it means. Larry claims David Dees is not a Holocaust denier, though Dees clearly is.

Larry previously asked
"I asked you two for EVIDENCE------EVIDENCE that Dees COMPLETELY DENIES THE HOLOCAUST EVER HAPPEND. And what I mean by "COMPLETELY DENIES" is the accusation you two are making that Dees is saying NOT ONE MURDER occurred."
Larry invents a definition of Holocaust denial, then demands we prove Dees lives up to it. Else Dees can't qualify. Sorry - not the way it works. The definition is the usual definition, not the one Larry invents.

Here's David Dees denying the Holocaust, in response to an enquiry sent by Larry:
"There were precise records kept by the germans, these were stolen by the russians, then released in 1989

also the red cross international after years of being allowed to visit the camps wrote their estimate of 260,000 deaths

and consider that only forty per cent were jewish, is that really a holocaust?

People don't want to investigate, they love the documentaries made by hollywood, 6 mil,hahaha, F em. It is another zionist scam like all the others. With no auschwitz there would have been no Israel, tell your friends to wake up."
At the link Dees gave, it says:
A complete fabrication.....Holocaust denial. Obviously.

David Dees himself wrote that "6 million is a total fabrication to push the creation of Israel." Larry denies this is Holocaust denial. He's a denial denier? Crazy.

Dees went on to say:
I will go with the eyewitnesses who were allowed into the camps, the international red cross, they put the figures at 270,000, and records show only 40 per cent of the prisoners were jewish, do the math little babies.
Well, there you go. Holocaust denial. Dees further jibed that
I noticed you did not debate the facts that the red cross made their announcement after volumes of studies about the holocaust, instead you say that I am not worth your time. Once day you will take the time to study the event
Dees makes use of the old, discredited claims about the ICRC.

The ICRC have completely refuted such claims. Here's what ICRC have to say about such claims:
This and similar correspondence is frequently misrepresented as the absolute death toll of the Holocaust by deniers.

The January 19, 1955 edition of Die Tat did indeed give a 300,000 figure, but this was only in reference to "Germans and German Jews" and not nationals of other countries. In a 1979 response to this pamphlet, the ICRC said that they have "never tried to compile statistics on the victims of the war", nor "certified the accuracy of the statistics produced by a third party", and state that the authors of such material have "falsified" both claims that the document originates from the ICRC and refers exclusively to Jews.

As well as in personal correspondence, the ICRC has also addressed this misrepresentation by several other means. In 1975, the ICRC wrote to the Board of Deputies of British Jews in London regarding Harwood's citations, stating:

The figures cited by the author of the booklet are based upon statistics falsely attributed to us, evidently for the purpose of giving them credibility, despite the fact that we never publish information of this kind.

—Françoise Perret , Comité International de la Croix-Rouge, to Jacob Gerwitz, August 22, 1975.
The ICRC report is very clear regarding Nazi atrocities; for instance, in page 641 of vol. 1, the report states that the Jews were "outcasts condemned by rigid racial legislation to suffer tyranny, persecution, and systematic extermination". It goes on to say "they were penned into concentration camps and ghettos, recruited for forced labor, subjected to grave brutalities and sent to death camps".

Another verbatim quote is the following (in the same page):

"During the period in September 1940, when the 'Iron Guard' supported by the Gestapo and the German SS had seized power, the Jews had been subjected to persecution and reported to death camps".
Larry and Dees quotes are taken from this page over at DFQ2


Real Truth Online said...

I will repeat the question I asked on the other post:

Is 150,000 deaths a "massive slaughter"?

YES or NO?

the_last_name_left said...

Was the Nazi Holocaust about 150k?

the_last_name_left said...

I'll give you fair warning Larry - play nice, or not at all.

the_last_name_left said...

"Holocaust denial is widely viewed as failing to adhere to rules for the treatment of evidence, principles that mainstream historians (as well as scholars in other fields) regard as basic to rational inquiry."

As for Holocaust denial, so it is with 911Troof - no wonder because it's the same people and same 'methodology' involved. Basically ignore all the evidence which contradicts what one wishes to believe, and fabricate the rest. Tough work, i bet.

Real Truth Online said...

YOU play nice you fucking lying faggot. ANSWER my fucking question. Why do you keep AVOIDING answering it????

I will repeat the question I asked on the other post:

Is 150,000 deaths a "massive slaughter"?

YES or NO?

SIMPLE question...yes or no??? Now answer the question.

Real Truth Online said...

"As for Holocaust denial, so it is with 911Troof - no wonder because it's the same people and same 'methodology' involved. Basically ignore all the evidence which contradicts what one wishes to believe, and fabricate the rest."

LOL. This coming from the same "genius" who last year said the following when I asked him how could someone KNOW wtc7 was coming down, and the he compared it to the sun rising every day [an event he's seen thousands of times as opposed to a building collapsing by fire, that's never happened before]:

"Nobody "knows" the sun will definitely rise tomorrow but everyone "knows" it will."

NOBODY knows it AND EVERYONE knows it. Sheer brilliance. I could have an entire book printed up with ridiculous quotes like this one in it, being there's so many.

Real Truth Online said...

My comment IGNORED. I see you can't answer SIMPLE yes/no questions.

Speaks volumes.

Of course, I know that you CAN answer it, you just REFUSE to, because in admitting that 150,000 IS a massive'd be also admitting that Dees is NOT a holocaust denier.

THAT'S why you REFUSE to answer!

And you fucking KNOW IT.

the_last_name_left said...

Yes, 150k murders is a lot. Happy now?

The point is irrelevant, Larry - Dees was not arguing about the definition of "a holocaust", he is referring specifically to THE HOLOCAUST of the Jews by Nazis between 1942 and 45.


So by claiming it was 150k - and not 6 million - he certainly is engaged in Holocaust denial.

If you prefer, we can refer to it as the Shoah - and then you'll understand the point.

He's a Shoah denier - a Holocaust denier.


Stop defending him. And stop being so completely obnoxious?

You are being childish. Grow up?

the_last_name_left said...

I'm debating whether to ban you - I am really tired of your nonsense. Repeatedly warning you and doing nothing is dumb - I won't continue doing it.

I am holding off because I dislike banning people. And you do such a good job of discrediting your own position.

But my patience is not infinite, even if your foulness is.

Real Truth Online said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Real Truth Online said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
the_last_name_left said...

Larry forefeited his right to reply.

Here's his site - Real Troof Online - he can find his trash there.

Real Truth Online said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
jj2014 said...

In the late 1960s, the WatchTower Society commissioned an exact and comprehensive history of Jehovah's Witnesses in Germany, which was to include exact and precise statistics for the Holocaust period, which were to be extracted from not only government archives, but, more importantly, from the WatchTower Cult's own METICULOUS RECORDS in Germany and other European countries. That report was published by the WatchTower Cult in 1973.

Apparently, the WatchTower Cult was greatly disappointed in the Holocaust statistics uncovered by its own legal researchers, because that report has rarely been cited by the WatchTower Cult in its' own Holocaust-related articles published subsequent to the 1973 report. Instead of using its' own documented exact statistics, both the WatchTower Cult and individual Jehovah's Witnesses routinely cite inflated statistics from non-WatchTower sources whose numbers are inflated "guestimates", or are inflated numbers from unreliable and inaccurate records.

Accordingly to the WatchTower Cult's own 1973 report, only 6019 Jehovah's Witnesses were arrested in Germany during the 12 year Nazi period of 1933 through 1945. Only 2000 German JWs were ever sent to concentration camps. Only 203 were executed. Another 432 German JWs died while in custody in all German jails, prisons, and camps.

Exact numbers for other Nazi-occupied countries are unknown. Even Holocaust experts who inflate German JW statistics guestimate that only
600-800 non-German JWs from Nazi-occupied countries were ever sent to concentration camps. Mortality figures are not known.

Thus, only 2600-2800 Jehovah's Witnesses were ever sent to Nazi concentration camps. Death statistics are not known, but can be reasonably estimated to be in the 500-700 range. The JW TOTAL for 1933-1945 is about HALF the DAILY AVERAGE of Jewish deaths -- 1370 every single day for the 12 year Nazi period.

During this same 1933-1945 time period, there were more Jehovah's Witnesses arrested and jailed in the United States than in Germany. In fact, just during 1941-1945, approximately 4500 American Jehovah's Witnesses men "elected" to go to prison rather than serve in the U.S. Military and help stop Nazis atrocities against their fellow JWs.

Approximately 3000 of those 4500 American JWs were even offered "conscientious objector" status, in which they were offered "non-combatant" work as a substitute for military service, but 99% of those 3000 American JWs refused to help out even that much.

It is an insult to memorialize the small handful of anti-societal, trouble-seeking Jehovah's Witnesses alongside the 6,000,000+ Jewish Holocaust victims given that Jehovah's Witnesses view the Jewish people much as did the Nazis.

The WatchTower Cult preaches its own version of "replacement theology", which teaches that YHWH rejected the Jews as His "chosen people", and
replaced the Jewish people with today's "Jehovah's Witnesses". The WatchTower Cult teaches that modern-day Jews are YHWH's enemies, and that all of the YHWH's promises of restoration for the Jewish people now belong to the followers of the WatchTower Cult.

In fact, the title "Jehovah's Witnesses" was originally applied to the Jewish people by the Prophet Isaiah, and that scripture is even memorialized on the wall inside the front entrance of the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C.

jj2014 said...

The WatchTower Cult, in calling its own members -- "Jehovah's Witnesses" -- is attempting to steal that designation away from the Jewish people. This is the very reason that for the past three decades that the WatchTower Cult has had a corporate department dedicated to making certain that every single Holocaust rememberance of any size or type -- newspaper article, book, speech, museum, etc -- anywhere in the world, publicize the fact that the WatchTower Cult's own "Jehovah's Witnesses" were equally persecuted alongside "natural" Jews. This is the WatchTower Cult's way of claiming that "Satan" and his human supporters hate "Jehovah's Witnesses" as much or more than they hate natural Jews -- thus attempting to prevent the Jewish people from laying claim to any spiritual significance that might be interpreted from the Holocaust experience.

In 1933, after the Nazis first started arresting some German JWs, the WatchTower Cult issued a public proclamation of appeasement which condemned an imagined partnership between "Jewish Big Business" and the governments of the United States and Great Britain, which supposedly oppressed and exploited other countries, including Germany. The WatchTower Cult's proclamation condemned the Americans and the British as "the most oppressive empire on earth".

A conciliatory letter also was sent to Hitler, which highlighted those areas in which the WatchTower Cult supported the new Nazi government. The letter even claimed that the U.S. Government had imprisoned the leaders of the WatchTower Cult during WW1 because they refused to print anti-German propaganda.

During the early years of World War 2, when Germany and Japan were having much success on the battlefields, the WatchTower Cult started teaching that the Bible prophesied that the Axis Powers would defeat and rule over the United States, Britain, and other Allies.

In the United States, JWs went to the homes of families of American service men and women and told those parents, siblings, and spouses that Germany was prophesied to win the war, and that in fighting against Hitler, American and British soldiers were fighting against God's will. A Jehovah's Witness named Taylor was arrested after going to two homes of dead servicemen and telling their families that their sons had died while opposing God's will. Don't believe this? Read 1943 U.S. Supreme Court case TAYLOR v. MISSISSIPPI. Remember the actual historical context the next time you read some liberal newspaper or book's account about how some poor innocent Jehovah's Witness was beaten during WW2 for doing nothing except preaching the Bible door-to-door.

While it is true that a small number of German and other European JWs suffered greatly during the early stages of the Holocaust, it is also true that during the latter stages of the Holocaust that imprisoned JWs became exemplary Nazi collaborators highly valued by the Nazis.

Over the decades, the WatchTower Cult itself has published numerous biographical stories in which imprisoned JWs are praised for having been given positions of authority and responsibility within the various Nazi concentration camps. Various Nazi officials are quoted praising those JWs for not only their work, but their work ethic and supportive attitudes.

In fact, one of Heinrich Himmler's deputies even sent Himmler a report suggesting that after Germany won the war that conquered non-Germanic christian countries be forced to convert to the Jehovah's Witness religion, so as to maintain a controlling religious element in those people's lives which would pose no threat to Nazi political control.

the_last_name_left said...

cheers justin