Sunday, 4 October 2009

Rivero, WRH, Chris Bollyn, 911 and LIES

Under a heading "911 Smoking Gun", Mike Rivero at WRH writes about the major fire in the Madrid tower:
The core of the structurally similar Windsor Building in Madrid withstood an 800°C inferno for more than 18 hours without failing....

LINK
The link provided to backup this claim is to A Christopher Bollyn article, published at Rivero's site, WhatReallyHappened.com. It says:
As an intense fire consumed the 32-story Windsor Building in Madrid's business district, the press reports all began with the words "fear
of collapse." After 24 hours, however, the tower, which was a similar construction to the twin towers of the World Trade Center, remained standing.

LINK
A smoking gun, huh?

But can we draw that conclusion? That rests upon the claim that the Madrid Tower and the WTC were "similar".

They were not similar. The WIndsor Tower had a concrete core, concrete throughout its main structure and concrete "strong" floors to provide additional strength. The parts of the MAdrid Tower that were not concrete-reinforced and heat-protected actually DID collapse.

This is from The Concrete Centre:
The Madrid Windsor Tower Building Fire, 14-15 February 2005

* Landmark 29-floor tower on Madrid skyline remained standing despite a 26-hour, multiple-floor fire.

* Despite a complete burn-out, the strength provided by a technical concrete floor, plus the passive fire resistance of the building's concrete core and frame, prevented the building from collapse.

* The only part of the building to collapse was the network of steel perimeter columns supporting the slab on the upper floors.

* the Madrid Windsor Building's strong points were its two concrete 'technical' floors and the concrete core system enabling the building to survive complete burnout.

* This case study is an example of the excellent performance of a concrete frame designed using traditional methods and subjected to an intense fire. It also highlights the risks when active fire protection measures fail or are not included in steel frame construction.

......

The building totalled 32 storeys, with 29 floors above ground and three below. A concrete core and concrete frame supported the first 16 floors. Above that was a central support system of concrete columns, supporting concrete floors with steel perimeter columns. An additional feature was the presence of two 'technical floors' - concrete floors designed to give the building more strength. One was just above the ground level and the other at the 17th floor.

LINK
Here's a picture of the Madrid Tower's unprotected steel portions collapsing - analogous to the WTC collapsing.

And here's a picture of the burnt-out remains......showing the collapsed (melted) steel.....and the remaining INTACT concrete reinforced structure and core. NOT similar at all to the WTC - and in fact illustrates why the WTC did collapse, and Madrid did not. If the whole Madrid Tower had been made of only steel, it surely would have collapsed too because the parts of it that were not concrete reinforced and heat protected DID collapse.


This is an example of dishonest treatment of evidence.

Why do Rivero and Bollyn claim the buildings were similar? They're either lying, or plain wrong. Likely they know they are lying - because their wrong claims serve their agenda.

Regardless of their intent - their claims are empty. But nevertheless, people still accept the claims - and they add such "knowledge" to what they believe is "the truth". Similar buildings? No. Steel can't melt and collapse? Madrid proves it can, does, and will again.

17 comments:

socrates said...

Why are you ignoring my latest adventure at RI? Tinoire has been busted as an outright liar. She now says I have stretched her admitting being in the military into some conspiracy theory, when by her own words she said once at the Ronald Reagan forum that she was military intelligence. Now she is making up more crap about me. And get this, she says I have been banned by every self respecting 9/11 forum there is. I don't post at those places. I don't post much on 9/11 at all. The only reason I posted at the one at DU was that all "chemtrail" threads are housed in their Sept. 11th dungeon. Obviously she is still selling that we are the same person. So it's tough for me not to wonder why you weren't ignoring me with the BradBlog stuff, but now you are with this new thing.

the_last_name_left said...

S:
Posted by socrates to the_last_blog_left at 04 October 2009 23:48


S: Why are you ignoring my latest adventure at RI?

05 October 2009 05:21


Gee - hold your horses? 6 hours passed?

You made good use of an opportunity, it seems.

I tried reading the thread at PI about their changes......their lurch to the left?

All well and good......but....a bit late in the day. And in contradiction of much that has past before ie Rivero, RonPaul, MilInt etc.

I must say -- I'm a little bit disconcerted. I don't trust Tinoire.....and PI.....and now they're singing about "the fake left".

Errrr.......not that the idea is exclusively "ours"......but.....funny they should now be chanting our refrain? Someone's shifting gear?

Their new, more militantly leftist/marxist bent reads very well, imo. BUT - it stands in direct contradiction of the earlier Rivero love-in. Has the Rivero love-in finished? Maybe - but the question remains "How did it ever begin.....considering Rivero's views"?

So I'm very suspicious of the "appeal" of their new direction.

They've just realised they need to be more and properly "leftwing"? It must have been the money spent on sponsoring Rivero that did it? lol. Mea Culpa?

socrates said...

You wouldn't believe how alienating this whole thing is. Do you want links?

There is one thread I was on at RI. There was another at PI I saw last night where Tinoire does a complete hand over her ears I'm not listening spiel. She clearly is still saying we are the same person. I don't care about Sept. 11th as in conspiracy theory. I never did. I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

It's pretty clear to anyone who looks at the stuff that these forums are rigged. I have clear cut proof that Rivero worked for McDonnell Douglas. Someone is upset I didn't provide clickable links. I did to the Ronald Reagan forum. Tinoire didn't even address the military intelligence part. She's making it seem I am stretching her military service into being some sort of conspiracy theory spin.

Ernest Canning was in Vietnam. So fricken what. I don't like that Canning was a corporate attorney for Hilton Hotels, unless there's another Ernest Canning with the middle initial A. Anyway, I was providing screenshots of links from google. I'm sick of doing people's homework, or it's not my fault if some links are no longer available. That's why I take screenshots.

It's precisely what you are saying about Tinoire's love for Rivero which cannot be explained away. But it's also about her voting for and supporting Ron Paul. The Tinoire as commie thing doesn't pass the stink test. Why is she ignoring having said she was military intelligence? Isn't it said that it's the cover up which can do more damage than the actual crime? She said she was in military intelligence and was spying on the Russians. I honestly don't believe she is the brightest bulb in the disinfo toolshed.

These people are paid disinfo! This schtick couldn't be more transparent. And who the hell discusses Marxist theory this much and acts like a commie intellectual on the internet. They're also making neo-Marxism look more like Stalinism or Leninism than characteristic of the good man Leon Trotsky. No way would a lefty intellectual ever have gone near Ron Paul or Mike Rivero. And what about Rivero having worked for McDonnell Douglas. Obviously now we have two of these people, so-called patriots, with freaky military ties. I can find you the link, it's at PI. Tinoire links to some other post she made at the Ronald Reagan forum, and makes it seem I took her posting out of context. She could have just said something like military intelligence isn't necessarily cloak and dagger and posting internet disinfo. Damn, she is an idiot. Then she writes yesterday that I have been banned from every self respecting Sept. 11th forum. I don't write about Sept. 11th!

Anyway, so Tinoire registered Republican and voted for Ron Paul. Rivero worked for a large military contractor. Yes, Tinoire is highly affiliated with Rivero. And no one at RI has stood up for me after getting unfairly tossed from that forum. Jeff Wells went to PI to console Tinoire. These people are holding onto an old business model that only works if they can control the flow of awareness. I actually didn't think the military intelligence comment was that huge compared to Rivero working for McDonnell Douglas, but now that I see Tinoire is covering up that aspect of her military service, then she has unwittingly let it be known that she doesn't want people to think about it. Tinoire was a spy. She admitted to it once in one sentence out of thousands and millions of them from her diarhea of the mouth "blogging" career. Now she is stealing the fake progressive debate. You nailed it TLNL. I have nailed a lot also. No true hard core lefty would have ever voted for Ron Paul or supported Michael Rivero.

I think the commie side at Tinoire's was upset with the anti-semitism of some of those they have banished. I don't have the time to figure it out. My best cybersleuthing days are behind me. But if this is true, then of course Tinoire cannot afford to plug Rivero and anti-semitism any longer. She will want her support of him and Ron Paul to fall down a memory hole.

the_last_name_left said...

Good stuff, S - put the boot in! :D

S: She clearly is still saying we are the same person.

What would it matter even if we were the same person? It's irrelevant to posts about her. She's playing the man, not the ball.

S: I have clear cut proof that Rivero worked for McDonnell Douglas.

Well - at the very least evidence that Rivero posted a load of stuff regularly from a McDonnell Douglas email addy.

I think that's someway short of proof he worked for them.....but....it suggests he did. It's something for him to explain, at the very least.

maybe it's part of his NASA gig? He claims to have worked there? (Doing what? Janitor? :))

S: Tinoire didn't even address the military intelligence part. She's making it seem I am stretching her military service into being some sort of conspiracy theory spin.

Not just 'military intelligence'......but active in Reagan's South and Central American farrago.

I don't "forgive and forget" with these military types who turn all leftie, pacifist and opposed to militarism. Why does it take such an event to change them? Does it really change them? Why should we believe it? It's up to them to do what they can to make amends -- and they must understand the suspicion I and others hold them with.

S: she writes yesterday that I have been banned from every self respecting Sept. 11th forum. I don't write about Sept. 11th!

There is NO "self-respecting" 911 forum. And it's a matter of respect that one gets banned from such places. :D

S: And who the hell discusses Marxist theory this much and acts like a commie intellectual on the internet.

Well, I'd like to. The odd thing is that it should start now? Why now? Why after supporting RonPaul, having a picture taken with Wolfowitz, sponsoring Rivero.....? It looks like a rebranding......as the comments at PI suggest.

Why did it take until now for one of these popular forums to "discover" marx?

And consider - I like Marx - I got banned from PI after 2 posts.

Just as I got banned over at RI.

I don't get it.

These places are so self-congratulatory that they're so fucking sceptical, progressive, critical, intellectual.........and yet.....the evidence is totally the other way in my experience.

I mean - why the fuck wait til now to trot out Marx?

Why wasn't it there in the first place? And in a positive way.......

All these places treat people like everyone is already "educated". As if it is just a matter of organisation.....of getting a few contemporary facts out. No - that's not enough.

I find Marx endlessly interesting......rich.....intellectually stimulating. Profound. But there's nowhere that even respects his name amongst popular forums.....let alone somewhere to learn more about it.....to make contemporary analysis with it. It's sad it is so rejected.......imo it's like we had rejected his contemporary, Darwin. Nobody says evolution is "out of date".....irrelevant to the modern world....blah blah blah.

S: Now she is stealing the fake progressive debate.

well, that's what it looks like.

It might be nice to think people like us had got through to her......fake progressives, back to Marx......but.....it doesn't have the semblance of organic change does it? All things considered it smacks of cynical rebranding.....a shift in direction.....another confidence trick.

the_last_name_left said...

Good stuff, S - put the boot in! :D

S: She clearly is still saying we are the same person.

What would it matter even if we were the same person? It's irrelevant to posts about her. She's playing the man, not the ball.

S: I have clear cut proof that Rivero worked for McDonnell Douglas.

Well - at the very least evidence that Rivero posted a load of stuff regularly from a McDonnell Douglas email addy.

I think that's someway short of proof he worked for them.....but....it suggests he did. It's something for him to explain, at the very least.

maybe it's part of his NASA gig? He claims to have worked there? (Doing what? Janitor? :))

S: Tinoire didn't even address the military intelligence part. She's making it seem I am stretching her military service into being some sort of conspiracy theory spin.

Not just 'military intelligence'......but active in Reagan's South and Central American farrago.

I don't "forgive and forget" with these military types who turn all leftie, pacifist and opposed to militarism. Why does it take such an event to change them? Does it really change them? Why should we believe it? It's up to them to do what they can to make amends -- and they must understand the suspicion I and others hold them with.

It actually makes me pretty cross getting lectured by such people.......what are they telling me this stuff for? Tell it to their friends?

S: she writes yesterday that I have been banned from every self respecting Sept. 11th forum. I don't write about Sept. 11th!

There is NO "self-respecting" 911 forum. And it's a matter of respect that one gets banned from such places. :D

S: And who the hell discusses Marxist theory this much and acts like a commie intellectual on the internet.

Well, I'd like to. The odd thing is that it should start now? Why now? Why after supporting RonPaul, having a picture taken with Wolfowitz, sponsoring Rivero.....? It looks like a rebranding......as the comments at PI suggest.

Why did it take until now for one of these popular forums to "discover" marx?

And consider - I like Marx - I got banned from PI after 2 posts.

Just as I got banned over at RI.

I don't get it.

These places are so self-congratulatory that they're so fucking sceptical, progressive, critical, intellectual.........and yet.....the evidence is totally the other way in my experience.

I mean - why the fuck wait til now to trot out Marx?

Why wasn't it there in the first place? And in a positive way.......

All these places treat people like everyone is already "educated". As if it is just a matter of organisation.....of getting a few contemporary facts out. No - that's not enough.

I find Marx endlessly interesting......rich.....intellectually stimulating. Profound. But there's nowhere that even respects his name amongst popular forums.....let alone somewhere to learn more about it.....to make contemporary analysis with it. It's sad it is so rejected.......imo it's like we had rejected his contemporary, Darwin. Nobody says evolution is "out of date".....irrelevant to the modern world....blah blah blah.

S: Now she is stealing the fake progressive debate.

well, that's what it looks like.

It might be nice to think people like us had got through to her......fake progressives, back to Marx......but.....it doesn't have the semblance of organic change does it? All things considered it smacks of cynical rebranding.....a shift in direction.....another confidence trick.

socrates said...

Thanks for the response. Like I said before, this can get very alienating.

It's important for folks to know that calling us sock puppets is part of their modus operandi. Nothing more. Nothing less. You are quite correct that they are avoiding the content that the few of us provide. They are taking the concept of the big lie to ludicrous dimensions. They think many people will think we are paid to post, that perhaps we aren't the same person, but that we are on the same payroll. I think they feel they have no other choice because of how wide their operation is and how much resources they have put into their contrived zeitgeist. We are talking years, and while we are talking about a number of websites, I do feel it is somewhat finite, and all the big names have been proven to be tied together. On the surface, one might not see that BradBlog leads to VR which leads to PI which leads to Rivero, for example, but oh boy, they do.

I envision this as similar to an episode of one of our best shows of the 90's called Seinfeld. George Costanza says he has a house in the upscale area called The Hamptons. His in-laws don't believe him and take him up his offer to show him the house. Instead of finding a way to back out of it, George continues to go with his big lie. His catch phrase line from the show was, "I'm taking it up a notch."

You see this playing out with the Sibel Edmonds script. Now we see FBI agents saying her story is credible. To remind people, the FBI is the organisation which ran cointelpro. Hmmm. My theories of internet cointelpro may be spot on. And I haven't just thrown out that phrase like a brand product the way Rivero has. I admit I don't have paystubs, but I have done my best to present the very best evidence I have been able to find through looking through open source information. Yes, they are playing the man, not the ball. This is because the devil is indeed in the details.

It's not only that it is 100% fact that Rivero had a McDonnell Douglas email address. He was posting to military addresses. It is that he has never admitted to working for a defense contractor. It's like Tinoire ignoring her statement that she was in military intelligence. These are not details that these folks want people to be aware. I found those things. They weren't easy to locate.

Rivero claims and appears to actually be a high tech animator with credits from Hollywood movies. I suppose he was doing those types of things for NASA. The reason we can know for sure that he had the McDonnell Douglas email address and it wasn't a different Michael Rivero is precisely because on one of the emails he wrote, he left his signature line, one that can be confirmed as his through a mainstream publication.

{continued}

socrates said...

There are similarities between Tinoire's admission and that of Markos Moulitsas of the Daily Kos. He said he applied to the CIA and that it is a liberal instituion he wouldn't be ashamed of working for. When he tells his story of why his family came to America, he always speaks of witnessing bloodshed at the hands of communists. He never mentions the right wing death squads of El Salvador. And this is where I think Tinoire has gone stupid yet again. Here was an opportunity for her to come clean and not "take it up a notch." She could have said something like she had an epiphany after getting caught up in Cold War politics. She could have made up some crapola about seeing the futility of us versus them geopolitics. She could have faked being human, that she was ignorant at the time, and that after working as a spy, she completely cut all ties to the defense industry. But she didn't. She acknowledged nothing about that stint she says she did spying on the Russians. In fact, she made it seem that I was making it up, despite the fact that it is all right there for anyone to see at the Ronald Reagan forum.

I'm not gonna belittle anyone who sincerely has questions about what went down with September 11th. I think at a minimum, it has an enigmatic feel to it not unlike the JFK assassination. I believe over the next five to ten years, it will become clearer which side, debunkers or truthers, are closer to the truth.

Rebranding is a good way of putting it. BradBlog has tried dismally to rebrand with their Green Report after a Democrat got elected. Getting Sibel Edmonds has helped them. If anything, I'd say BradBlog has hurt Edmonds more than it has helped BradBlog. It may take another year or five years, but BradBlog will be known as a disinfo pit by the majority of people before all is said and done. I think more people are aware of it than it seems. But with the censorship, with having inside power within DU moderating, that Big Dan-electoral integrity side of the Rivero/Jones Network has been able to keep the mystique of integrity alive for those who don't peek behind the curtain.

Discussing Marx is cool. It just seems awfully forced. It seems scripted. Or you call it a rebranding. Yes, I like to also say it does not feel organic.

The reason you have been banned from all these places takes us back to the analogy of George not caving in with his Hamptons ruse. The table was set at the WRH Unofficial forum that we are the same person. That we forged our friendship on our mutual dislike of Michael Rivero meant that going to PI could not possibly be allowed. Tinoire and Rivero sponsor each other. It's all been inevitable somehow. I think one of the biggest finds I came up with was finding out that PI is affiliated with Velvet Revolution. It's a wide network putting out these confidence tricks, but I still sincerely believe it is ultimately finite in nature, and we found a way to get beyond our differences and fully expose them for the confidence men and women they are.

the_last_name_left said...

Rivero claims and appears to actually be a high tech animator with credits from Hollywood movies. I suppose he was doing those types of things for NASA. The reason we can know for sure that he had the McDonnell Douglas email address and it wasn't a different Michael Rivero is precisely because on one of the emails he wrote, he left his signature line, one that can be confirmed as his through a mainstream publication.

EGO.

Likewise Tinoire's bragging eventually exposed her.

Pride before a fall? ;)

socrates said...

I think a number of things have led to their downfall. Ego of course is one thing, but I think the biggest problem is they have a blind spot. You know when you're driving a car, there's always a small spot where you probably can never know what is there. They couldn't foresee that their mistakes would come back to haunt them.

The biggest reason why I think they are paid disinfo is because a lot of mistakes they make seem to be on purpose. It's as if such folks want to be perceived as having no credibility by masses of people, while subsequently trying to usher in sycophants and various useful idiots to give the impression that their astroturf is more common that it really is.

It gets interesting to see what mistakes they don't want well-known. They obviously want the anti-semitism to filter through. A guy like BradBlog, if he didn't want that to happen, would never allow Agent99 to be his moderator. He can't be unaware of how sick his comments section can get, and I doubt he is unaware of Big Dan's blog. He once posted on Dredd's obscure blog. One can see with Tinoire's recent postings that she is aware of some of my past movements. One huge example of this is how I was originally banned from Rigorous Intuition without making one post. There are only a few of us who simply refuse to go away. That a convoluted cybersmear script was put in place against me, one in which you were eventually made part of it, has to tell us that these people are getting paid. This may not be the same as finding paystubs of theirs from Disinfo Incorporated, but I believe such efforts are transparent of that type of profession.

Rivero didn't like being tied to the Special Forces Underground. He has never admitted to being associated with a large military contractor. Tinoire doesn't want people to realise she was in military intelligence. Same goes for Jeff Wells. He doesn't want people to know he got banned from DU for voting racist in a poll. He doesn't want folks to know he has been involved with past convolution revolving around Tinoire, someone named Seventhson, and Andy Stephenson. Larisa and Brad don't want people to know the truth about Brett Kimberlin.

Markos Moulitsas doesn't want people to take a close look at his CIA timeline based on his interview with the Commonwealth Club. He said he applied for a six month process in 2001. He started Daily Kos in 2002. He said he decided to join the Howard Dean campaign in 2003 instead of accepting a position as a clandestine spy. On a related note, Kos also sent out memos to his Townhouse group with instructions "to starve the oxygen" out of the Jerome Armstrong payola scandal.

Thanks again for responding. Thanks for your compliments above, albeit in the form of a double post [/razz smilie]. With this post I have simply attempted to push that boot farhter down into the chest of a disinfo racket that is not fooling as many people as they would it to. It's funny to watch Jeff Wells of RI implode. He locked that thread. He doesn't want any cross-board flame wars. The last week he has simultaneously thrown Tinoire under the bus while protecting her. I guess it is time to coin a new phrase, double blogspeak.

socrates said...

oops, saw a typo or two, sorry, sometimes I like to just hit the publish your comment button without checking the roughdraft.

Anonymous said...

retard

the_last_name_left said...

Nice summation, Socrates.

It's very interesting. Well, it is to me at least. :)

There's a few things I'd like to raise though. First, I don't think I'm of the exact same opinion as you, but I understand what you're saying (a few points aside - esp about peeps I know little or nothing about)

The main thing to me is that the connection between people is ideological......

You say "The biggest reason why I think they are paid disinfo is because...."

Personally I see it more as ideological commitment, rather than pure cash - a job - a paycheck. I probably have nothing of substance to substantiate my reasoning though.

I mean - I agree I can see "disinfo".......and networks of it.....but I don't know that it is being paid for, and whatnot. Possibly......but......paid by whom, and for what, anyway? As ever - I won't go so far as to declare errr......cointelpro.....or whatever. Who knows?

S: The biggest reason why I think they are paid disinfo is because a lot of mistakes they make seem to be on purpose.

Yeah.......good point.

But..... :)

I feel very uncomfortable reasoning like that. Maybe it's more intuition anyway, rather than reasoning? Whatever - I don't feel qualified to decide such things - I don't feel I know enough to have an opinion really.

{That's why I am committed to "just" looking at what people say......(I don't know I can say much more about it)}

S: They obviously want the anti-semitism to filter through.

Yes. (I find that abominable)

Why indulge it in the least?

Especially when one is supposed to have only the loftiest of motives - and be standing in opposition to "fascism". How fucking obvious does it have to be that they are not doing this?

But......these places are not competing for the attention of people who can work this stuff out - let alone are they after "very clever" people. They're trying to attract two things: 1) politically active people, and 2) masses of people.

That's what they're doing? For me it's ideological......for you, "they're being paid".....perhaps by FBI.....

I don't have any answer......I'm not saying "you are wrong".....because I don't know. How could anyone know? That's my view. I agree with your essential point - but I don't subscribe to "they are paid"/"they are cointelpro". I don't know.

Regardless - the allowance, and encouragement imo, of anti-semitism is despicable. It doesn't really help anyone. (Many Germans benefited from Nazism)

S: A guy like BradBlog, if he didn't want that to happen, would never allow Agent99 to be his moderator

What sort of an astute "liberal journalist" would have someone who joyfully hangs with Plunger as a Moderator?

It's ridiculous.

My investigation of my censor, BradBlog's moderator - Agent99 - has shown (to me) that Bradblog is moderated by a far-right anti-semite. And. also, that Bradblog commentary is populated by the far-right. (Not that it's necessarily self-conscious, though. I think it is, but.....it might be just a prevalence of the content of the far-right memes, and a lot of the ideas and perspectives. But - as I like to ask -- How much of Nazism does one have to accept and agree with to become "a Nazi"? It ain't the footwear.)

S: He can't be unaware of how sick his comments section can get, and I doubt he is unaware of Big Dan's blog. He once posted on Dredd's obscure blog.

Indeed. Posting on Dredd's blog shows a certain awareness of.....the milieu.

And they let anti-semitism pass? Encourage it, actually, IMO. Dumbfucks. It really fucks me off. Cause I'm jewish......yeah.....sure. No - because I'm fucking WELSH. And ENGLISH. And OR fucking whatever. Roman? (I think I'm Roman, see. Ancient Roman town, and all that. I love the mediterranean....never been...but.....I know I love it!)

socrates said...

You see the connections between these people as ideological. I don't see it. The only connection I see is that they are Americans who have some absurd faith in alternative internet media. Rivero, Tinoire, and the Agent99s, they have the anti-semitism. Brad has never shown it. I'd be hard pressed to find any comment out of him concerning the conflict between Israel and Palestine.

One funny thing I see is that the Agent99's and Tinoire's claim to be lefties. I don't see Jones and Rivero pushing their right wing-ness as a similar badge of honour. Now while we also claim to be lefties or socialist peaceniks, unlike the 99's, we don't have any difficulty in recognising the right wing nature of their associates.

I've never come out and said these people are cointelpro. I have called them cointelpro-like. I have certainly given my opinion that I believe they could very well be some sort of black operation like cointelpro. Now that we see FBI and CIA agents coming to the defense of Sibel Edmonds, and then we see how Sibel is in bed with BradBlog, well, there you go, or as Reagan himself said, there you go again.

Another thing I think you are off on is that this is indeed a paycheck for most of them. Maybe that can't be said about 99 and Big Dan, but moast certainly Brad, Brett, Markos Moulitsas, Rivero, Jones, and many of these "alternative" personalities are making money off of their various hoaxes and sensationalism. So even if they aren't cointelpro, they are indeed paid to post. Now in regards to Hal Turner, it appears that he has been on the FBI payroll as an informant. There as with the Edmonds story, it becomes even easier to suggest a great possibility that there is an internet cointelpro network.

{continued}

socrates said...

Why doesn't Rivero ever mention his ties to military contractors? Why is Tinoire acting dumb about her statement that was military intelligence? Many people have tried to label me as some conspiracy kook always going on about cointelpro. That's not the truth. I have not been afraid to suggest it, seeing that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence suggesting more than grifting 101.

I think your bringing up the word millieu may supply the clue to answering or at a minimum being able to intuit wtf is going on. These people are very protective of their zone of the blogosphere.They clearly have inside power in this zone. At some point they decided that we pose a threat to their business model, regardless of what the exact motives are behind it, grifting, propaganda, or what have you.

One last thought I have for now. These people are always carping on about free speech and especially Brad says it is ok for posters to confront him as he considers himself a public personality. That is not true. Otherwise more people would be posting on his website about Agent99 and anti-semitism, or of how the Sibel Edmonds story doesn't add up or on Kimberlin or asking how much money Velvet Revolution has made from their hoaxes, on and on really. But all that is there is the illusion of freedom of speech. I would say that it is not ideology that all these various domains have in common, though there are semblences of that, but rather all these players appear to share the same business model. And again, it is impossible at the moment to say it is 100% fact that these are propagandists and not simply grifters. But that doesn't stop them from partaking in their own crazy theories that we are the same person, that we are disinfo, that we are Anonymous Army- that poster I told you about a while back, or even that we are something called GIYU or Mossad or Diebold or whatever they are now called. Like you said above, they are playing the man not the ball. They are not only censoring content and refusing to acknowledge that it exists as hard facts, they are presenting a couple nobodies like ourselves as being a form of monster troll. With their astroturfing, it is imperative to keep the lie going that their disinfo house of cards is built with a solid core. While we are just blog wreckers or worse. Content be damned in their world. Julia Scyphers? She doesn't even exist or matter to them. I guess they keep going with the cybersmear script because if one googles it, they are bound to end up reading my stuff. However, I can provide links to real sources where I became aware of the truth. There are a few sources on the net. People can also find a copy of Citizen K by Mark Singer. It will blow their mind, and they'll never again be able to visit BradBlog without wondering if they are supporting a man who would be absolutely nothing if the suspected murderer and convicted bomber and drug smuggler never had propped him up with 100% Grade-A horse shit. Then you throw in the Agent99-Big Dan and now Sibel Edmonds crapola, and I have every right to wonder whether these people are more than just grifters. It is a given that they are confidence men. That I am sure of.

socrates said...

A former FBI agent is being used to prop up the Edmonds story. He is now working for Air Force intelligence. He did an interview with a Brad Friedman associate. He says Sibel's story is 100% accurate. I see he did an interview back in 2004 with a conservative rag called the New American. Giraldi is the CIA guy who did the Edmonds interview for that other conservative rag put together by Pat Buchanan. Sorry, TLNL, but I smell cointelpro-like disinformation. Maybe this is all a limited hangout to take the heat off of real stories. I can only come up with my own opinions of why this bullshite is being circulated. But I am simply not buying it. It's beyond the beyond how many people with ties to military and FBI intelligence are finding their way into this milieu.

the_last_name_left said...

I hear ya. ;)

I should have made it more obvious I wasn't intending criticism - just commenting. I'm not saying "you're wrong".....I'm just blabbing - drawing circles. I find it can help....

socrates said...

Sorry, I should've been the one to be more clear. You were obviously measuring your words so as to not offend me. I should have acknowledged that. This is the internet. Gestures made in person aren't going on here. Misunderstandings can happen.

I guess I should have provided links to the FBI guy and how he is now part of the campaign to make Sibel look credible. But I am too tired to do that. Brad's got a thread up on it at DU, and there is not one person questioning it. It's all pats on the back, kick and recommended. While I continue to smell rats. Every time I just want to look at BradBlog, Tinoire, Rivero, these types as being grifters, along comes some tidbit which forces me to go up into the attic to find my tinfoil hat. Ha. How's that for some unoriginal self-deprecation?

The guy's name is Cole. And he just happened to do an interview with a close Brad Friedman associate. Cole says Edmonds is 100% credible.

I've always liked to have an extra forum or two to express myself. Before posting here, I used to chip in very similar stuff to Dredd's blog. He even had a link up to my place. Of course I was writing more about Kimberlin, Alexandrovna, and Friedman than Rivero and Tinoire, as myself and Dredd had both been posting at BradBlog around the same time. I even sent him a pdf copy of Singer's 1996 updated article on Kimberlin published in the New Yorker to go with the release of Citizen K. Anyway, Brad did show up, which you seem to have noticed or are going by my word. Yet again, he didn't explain anything about Kimberlin, of his past, how they met, etc.. It was just Brad showing up to diss me.

I guess when you say playing the man instead of the ball, you are referring to soccer. That's a great analogy. Instead of discussing the content, the discussion gets turned into a carnival act. It's precisely what happened to yourself at Rivero's WRH Unofficial forum. You were asking why can't Rivero make up his mind about why the Iraq War started? Was it because of oil or because of Israel? You were coming up with some darn good socratic questions. But before you knew it, people I believe are indeed cointelpro-like were saying you were me. They were focking up quotes from the long WRH thread at my place so our ientities were being blurred. A fake lawyer showed up who talked about suing you for defaming respected members of the community {Bank Index et al stuff you came up with and posted about at my forum}. The lawyer couldn't even tell when to use the words advice or advise properly, if you remember. But then to see that convoluted cybersmear script be carried over to Tinoire's and now BradBlog, well, I'd just like to say that these fockers picked the wrong people to fock with.

It all came together for me the last year. Once I found out that Tinoire is directly tied to Velvet Revolution, I knew that the milieu is finite in nature. It is a pretty big one, but still ultimately finite.