Monday 2 August 2010

This wouldn't post as a comment (in reply to Marty)

It's true, isn't it? That many jewish people are extraordinarily successful.....and some are just regularly successful....and...others just regular failures. I'm assuming most of that (but why not?)

Jews are found on both sides of the divide: capitalism and communism. Yet that divide doesn't even exist to the anti-semitic conspiracist mindset, preferring as it does to imagine that both communism and capitalism are 'two sides of the same coin': a supposedly false dichotomy entirely fabricated by world jewry to deceive the peons into fighting one another.

As someone whom believes in class and class conflict as a major driving force of history, a socialist and an egalitarian, I see the conspiracist view of 'communism and capitalism being two sides of the same coin' as a complete surrender to capitalism - a conservatism approaching that of the Catholic Church or Islam with their promises of Heaven once one's suffering is done. Completely ridiculous.

I do think I can see the world outside of the binary constraints of (marxist?) class war too. I can think like that in an abstract sense, but I feel as the default so much of what Marx says (rather, what I understand it to say).

In that sense, I couldn't give a fig even if the joooos were in control of the world, or trying to achieve it. What difference would it make? Do Jews face a completely different material reality to anyone else? Have they lived someplace else the last 200,000 years? Are they not descended from a common ancestor with apes, like the rest of us?

I don't think so, somehow. Call it intuition? lol

I think it's all completely ridiculous. Like capitalism and socialism are 'the same thing'! Note that this accusation comes from moral and intellectual pygmies - not some radical school of new rejectionists of old modernity proposing something truly new. Such accusations only come from.........capitalists. anti-socialists. Libertarians! HA - what a name. American libertarians are jumped-up radical capitalists - without fail in my experience.

Libertarianism is the umbilical between anarchism and capitalism. Libertarianism and anarchism are frauds imo. My first real political thought was to recognise myself an anarchist. Then I started learning. I'm no anarchist. [I would rather be free of all laws too, but, I'm a realist, moral, constructive. Why abandon the golden rule? Why shouldn't you face disincentives to do so? Just like why shouldn't petrol burn? Why should we get hungry? Ideally, you should be able to do what you want, never go hungry and petrol should only burn if you want it to. But the universe isn't like that. Certainly not yet, at least.]

I'm very grateful to my socialism for providing me a way to see the prevalence of present-day anti-semitism. Without my socialism I suspect I wouldn't have had the nonce to see through what people (like Mr Rivero) were telling me.

That's pretty depressing when acknowledging so few people seem genuinely socialist. But, that's what one should expect, I guess - anti-semitism in an anti-socialist world. I see some of Marx's apparent anti-semitism through that perspective : jewish perspectives are formed from the same material conditions that everyone else's are formed from, and Marx was scathing enough of those, so why not of Jews? Of course, as with all peoples of any identity, jews have their own particular story, but nevertheless, why shouldn't Marx be as scornful of their particularities as he was of everyone else's? Dead simple - Marx did not think jews were responsible for capitalism nor did he think Jews were necessarily any different from any other people, essentially. blah blah blah. The guy was a radical materialist, charges of racism seem ridiculous. If Marx had lived post-Hitler (!) would he have used such phrasing as he did? I don't believe it for a second.

But, yes, this (anti-semitic) conspiracism lark of communism being 'the other side of the coin' to capitalism? The people whom say this - conspiracists - mean it in the sense that the dichotomy between socialism and capitalism is entirely false and that a whole world of intellectual blunders have been made because of this misunderstanding. And to them it isn't a misunderstanding, it's a purposefully created falsehood - 'a false dichotomy' - and all part of 'the grand plan' which has used the entire (false) 'socialism versus capitalism' thing as part of its grand plan for world domination. The battle between labour and capital - the class war - it's a mere distraction. Apparently.

This is the basic rationale of wide swathes of opinion on the internet - although the extent of obvious anti-semitism differs throughout the various renderings of this grand tale. Nevertheless, even the least anti-semitic radical conspiracism tends to rely and reiterate the exact same 'information' and 'research' found at the most radical far-right, racist, fascist elements - Stormfront, the Klan, neo-Nazism, etc.

In ways the less obviously offensive outlets are the more dangerous: people let their guard down. The far-right and anti-semitism - shorn of swaztikas and searchlights - are pernicious, gossipy, soundbite-y, simplistic. INNOCUOUS. The far-right is well-aware of this, much more so than even the politically motivated 'average net user'. The far-right is extreme - and hence those that form it are necessarily very committed. The far-right exploits it and few are even aware it happens. (I openly and proudly declare myself as a socialist - and as a democrat. My commitment to democracy means I must declare my position as a socialist - and my position as a socialist means I must declare my democracy. Why would I wish to deceive anyone? Much of the far-right is dishonest, and refuses to admit its commitment and principles. They know their own views are shameful and unpopular. Whereas 'unpopular socialism' is an oxymoron, in principle, at least.)

Socialism and democracy and very closely linked. How could you have one without the other, really? Instead we have a semblance of democracy, wherein private finance protects and promotes special interests - and class interest. That's the deal? And so the jewish lobby, jewish culture, jewish people are amongst it. Along with everyone else. Big deal.

There's a clear anti-semitism when people try to suggest only jewish people are susceptible to - and the sole cause of - all these events and circumstances. It's ridiculous.

But what does one have left if one rejects socialism as a true alternative to capitalism? What else but ridicule can there be for anyone whom suggests socialism and capitalism are 'the same thing'? The people whom say this consider themselves without an ideology. I find that really quite amusing. No ideology? Apart from the ideologies that hold it is possible to operate as a human without an ideology?!

I have no ideology! There's no left or right! So they say. [They broaden this into a scheme (absent ideology!) of capitalism equalling communism(the same thing, two sides of the same coin, etc)]

Invariably such schemes lead straight to hardcore anti-semitism. Pursue any of the the lines and there's an anti-semitism to be found. At least, that's how it seems to me.

I'd argue conspiracism has a very, very close bond to anti-semitism : anti-semitism often takes the form of conspiracism and conspiracism seem invariably to be anti-semitic at its core. The overlap is obvious, even if one can imagine a conspiracism without anti-semitism. The position of conspiracist is a plausible one for someone whom isn't anti-semitic, maybe. However, adopting the ideas and methods of conspiracism make one more inclined towards anti-semitism simply because much of the narrative of anti-semitism is that of a conspiracy. It's form is the same narrative Hitler used to propel his new German myth. The neo-Nazis and plenty of others still believe this tripe. And it is already seeded and dispersed throughout the so-called 911 Truth Movement, the Patriot Movement and even apparently traditional socialist, liberal and conservative redoubts. Why wouldn't it?

http://dontclickonthislink.com

7 comments:

Martin Firestein said...

I'll do the best I can in replying to that post.

Part 1

>>>>>It's true, isn't it? That many jewish people are extraordinarily successful, and some are just regularly successful, and others just regular failures.>>>>>

This would definitely be true....

>>>>Jews are found on both sides of the divide: capitalism and communism. Yet that divide doesn't even exist to the anti-semitic conspiracist mindset, preferring as it does to imagine that both communism and capitalism are 'two sides of the same coin': a supposedly false dichotomy entirely fabricated by world jewry to deceive the peons into fighting one another.>>>>

I would rephrase this to say that people on the far right fear Jews as being responsible for godless Communism and the evils brought about by the Stalinist system (which was a form of authoritarian communism, not the communism by Marx which preached the eventual abolition of the nation-state), and people on the far left ... well ... I'm not quite sure what to say about the far left and anti-semitism. It seems that people on the left are critical of the influence that Israel (Jews?) have on the government in relation to issues concerning the Mideat and the Palestinian dilemma, but I'm loathe to label critics of Israel as anti-semites because there are legitimate points there made by the left as far as that goes.

I guess it might be easier to say that when people criticize Israeli policies that's fine, and when they talk about Israeli influence on the US government, that .... I won't say it's anti-semitic, but it does leave me uncomfortable.

I use to think that the far left feared Jews as being one with the capitalist system, but I'm not so sure about that anymore.

Martin Firestein said...

Part 2

>>>>I see the conspiracist view of 'communism and capitalism being two sides of the same coin' as a complete surrender to capitalism - a conservatism approaching that of the Catholic Church or Islam with their promises of Heaven once one's suffering is done.>>>>>

Honestly, I don't see how anyone could ever think of communism and capitalism as two sides of the same coin - especially here in the US considering we had a 5 decade "Cold War" in which our way of life (democratic/republican capitalism) was threatened by the USSR's system (authoritarian communism). If anything, as I kinda explained in part 1, I would invert that to read that Jews are/were targeted by the right and the left for having contributed to, or for bringing about both systems.

>>>>Do Jews face a completely different material reality to anyone else? Have they lived someplace else the last 200,000 years? Are they not descended from a common ancestor with apes, like the rest of us?>>>>>

It's helpful here to view the Christian Identity (a racist Christian sect in the US - I don't know if it exists elsewhere in the world) view of Jews. They believe that either Esau (whom the CI followers believe the Jews are descended from) gave up his birthright to his brother, and thus "Jews" aren't the people of Israel but some degenerate mud people like CI'ers view all other non-white races; or they (Jews) are the seeds of the Serpent in the Garden of Eden (which impregnated Eve, according to CI literature), and thus pure evil. So at least in the CI'er sense of the world, yes, the Jews are different and inferior/wicked/evil. Thus they don't share the same ancestry as the rest of the human species.

>>>>>Note that this accusation comes from moral and intellectual pygmies - not some radical school of new rejectionists of old modernity proposing something truly new. Such accusations only come from.........capitalists. anti-socialists. Libertarians! HA - what a name. American libertarians are jumped-up radical capitalists - without fail in my experience.>>>>

From what I remember reading about Nazi Germany, the corporations were in quite good with the NS regime, so I suppose that there could be some kinda conservative/corporate alliance going on here in terms of associating capitalism and communism together, but I really and truly believe that all of this is talk from the racist/white power right, and that it isn't a trait of all conservatism or libertarianism.

Martin Firestein said...

Part 3

>>>>>I'm very grateful to my socialism for providing me a way to see the prevalence of present-day anti-semitism. Without my socialism I suspect I wouldn't have had the nonce to see through what people (like Mr Rivero) were telling me.>>>>

The key to understanding anti-semitism, I think, is in its flexibility. We had a nutjob here in the US named James Von (Van?) Brunn, who shot up the US Holocaust Memorial in Washington DC and wanted to attack the Federal Reserve. Why the Federal Reserve? Here's an example of how flexible anti-semitism is. If you believe that Jews are "internationalist bankers" and that the Protocols of Zion are the path by which the Jews plan to take over the world, you can combine that with an economic philosophy that preaches against banks. Now I'm no economic theorist, but I read about the Austrian school of economics which poses that banks allow extra currency to flow into a nation's economy. Naturally, when there's too much money, it loses value, and thus you have inflation. But that's simply an economic theory or opinion. Whether it's true or not is besides the point.

The point is that you can combine that theory that banks cause inflation with anti-semitism, and thus instead of simply saying "banks cause inflation" you get "those internationalist/banker Jews are flooding our nation's economy with extra currency to deliberately cause inflation, wreck the nation's economy, and take over and absorb the country into the coming New World Order". See how that works? You can twist ANYTHING around to fit anti-semitic principles.

Instead of Jews being kicked out of country after country because of their different religious beliefs, or persecution based on the perception that they're "Christ killers", anti-semites can point to the number of countries from which Jews were expelled and come to a conclusion about them being parasites because clearly "every country they've ever lived in realized what vermin they are."

How exactly can you combat anti-semitism when it can so easily be adopted in so many different situations?

>>>>Dead simple - Marx did not think jews were responsible for capitalism nor did he think Jews were necessarily any different from any other people>>>

I never said he did. I was making the point that I thought (use to think?) that some people on the left who followed marxist principles felt this way about the relationship between Jews and capitalism (not you, of course!).

Martin Firestein said...

Part 4

>>>>And to them it isn't a misunderstanding, it's a purposefully created falsehood - 'a false dichotomy' - and all part of 'the grand plan' which has used the entire (false) 'socialism versus capitalism' thing as part of its grand plan for world domination. The battle between labour and capital - the class war - it's a mere distraction.>>>>>

I should amend everything I've said before in parts 1-3 to read that you might be right in that's how these people view the relationship between capitalism and communism, but I haven't seen it. The stuff I've seen has focused on the Protocols, anger at the Federal Reserve, tying that into international Jewry, labeling Jews as wicked/inferior, etc. Whatever "false flag" terminology I've seen has been geared more towards blaming Jews (or Israel) for 9/11 and tying that into the New World Order/Protocols perspective.

Maybe I just haven't visited enough anti-semitic sites. Once I see people start tying Jews to responsibility for the Columbine school massacre here in the US or the Black Dahlia case, you kinda wake up and realize "these people are nuts, and there's no point in spending more time investigating this crap." LOL.

>>>>Nevertheless, even the least anti-semitic radical conspiracism tends to rely and reiterate the exact same 'information' and 'research' found at the most radical far-right, racist, fascist elements - Stormfront, the Klan, neo-Nazism, etc.>>>>>

Or the Riveros or Jeff Rense's of the world.....

>>>>>What else but ridicule can there be for anyone whom suggests socialism and capitalism are 'the same thing'?>>>>

I'm far more irritated when people confuse socialism and national socialism.

the_last_name_left said...

Thanks for the lengthy response.

I should say, though my post was a reply to yours I wasn't addressing you explicitly as such: for example, I didn't mean to suggest it was you whom had said "Marx thought Jews were responsible for capitalism". It's just said, by some, that's what I meant. ;)

Sorry if I wasn't clear about what I meant.

Lots to respond to, but taking your example of the flexibility of anti-semitism shown in the bringing together of Austrian school stuff and world jewish conspiracy - that's the ground covered by Eustace Mullins. Also by Ron Paul to a degree - he legitimises the complaints, though Ron Paul eschews any overt anti-semitism, of course.

So, flexible? Yes, seemingly so - infinitely. BEAJ treats anti-semitism as a mental illness and I think there's a lot to be said for that view. It fits. A form of OCD, delusion, paranoia.....nasty stuff.

Socialism and national socialism? Y. A dangerous confusion, one that really irritates me too. It's fascinating at the same time - why do people believe it to be so? Larry wasn't too keen to go into it. ;) [Not to suggest Obama is a socialist, mind you!]

the_last_name_left said...

On socialism/capitalism being two sides of the same coin - it is a claim I've seen made often. It seems to connect at "a third way"....a rejection of real socialism and an apparent rejection of capitalism. [Fascism claimed "third way" status, posing as alternative to and rejection of both socialism and (liberal/jewish) capitalism.]

It's another layer to that use of anti-semitism as a target for whatever one chooses? Jewish socialism/Jewish capitalism - take your choice of target? and then there's "false Jewish dichotomy" if need be - and "the third way".

It's been quite a common theme in my experience of Troofers and all that - the claim that "false flag" covers russian revolutions, socialism vs capitalism. [Makes a natural avenue for the exoneration and rehabilitation of NAzism, by implication, yes?]

As a yoof I was deeply interested in the Russian revolutions, and I drank in a lot of material about it. Fortunately all that stuff served as a bulwark against the crap I saw Rivero and co feeding their audience about it. As you say, the experience of the cold war hardly lends itself seriously to a notion that there weren't real enemies. The history of Russian revolutions proves the same. Civil war - and it's all "a sham"? Sure. And as if Marxism could be created as a mere prop for the machinations of some malevolent group? Can one just create a robust intellectual edifice out of lies in the cause of hoodwinking entire nations and peoples? It's ridiculous, isn't it? It effectively assumes a removal of Marx (and all socialism) from serious intellectual consideration. It doesn't have to deal with the contents of Marxism and socialism by reducing it to a mere prop of grand (jewish) conspiracy.

Russia concluded a painful peace treaty with Germany (Thanks Trotsky) and was invaded by its former allies - the anti-socialist/capitalist/imperial allied coalition. 11/13/15 nations put troops into russia following the revolution (in support of the Whites)? All the machinations of a few Jooos, apparently. Such notions really should strain one's credulity! The basic premise seems to be 'there is no real conflict - only that which is purposefully generated by some nefarious conspiracy'. Forget class, it says. Forget all real conflict - except that with these few.....jooos. I think that's just plain silly. Why do people accept it so readily? I imagine because they have no real viable alternative, such as socialism, marxist materialism, structuralism, whatever?

And they think of this lack as a virtue - as a non-ideological ideology. Only other people are ideological. Apparently.

And so into libertarianism and anarchism - Ayn Rand's objectivism for example? The objective truth that capitalism and free-markets et al are intrinsically "liberty" producing, etc. Hmmm. They're free from ideology - they're being objective. Right.....hmmm. Whereas I'm imprisoned in my rigid Marxist dogma, of course. ;)

Martin Firestein said...

That would be an interesting area of exploration in itself - how much of anti-semitism is genuine fear/conspiracy/jealousy and how much is simply opportunistic in order to gain a following, get attention, raise money, etc.

I think part of it is simply not knowing history. People see National Socialist and they think "socialist" without realizing the racism or corporate partnerships that are involved. Or perhaps they're like a conspiracy minded author here in the US named Jim Marrs who understands that National Socialism tries to unite all classes for the glorification of the country, and presumes that NS is thus "socialism in one country", without realizing that socialism, in theory, is opposed to the racist and imperialist motives of the NS regime. I dunno. I'd be interested in reading the results, if a study was ever done, of why people confuse the two.

I would only add that Hitler thought of communism as "Jewish/Bolshevik". I can't remember reading anything about him associating Jews with capitalism, although I recall that Hitler wasn't fond of capitalism anyway.

I guess I always assumed "false flags" had more to do with terrorist acts (OK City bombing, 9/11) than entire revolutionary movements, etc. All the more proof that I didn't take the time to do more than dig a little bit beneath the surface when it comes to all this. lol.

BTW, another good example of twisting things around in an anti-semitic way. When Hitler started persecuting Jews after he took power, there was a boycott among Jews .... I can't remember if it was worldwide or if it was only in the UK, but the point is that a UK newspaper called it "International Jewry boycotts Germany" and people sympathetic to NS have used that as justification for Germany waging aggressive war (to defend itself against the Jewish international banker/Bolshevik/whatever influence) and attempting genocide.

It's truly remarkable how people can, through ignorance or opportunistic impluses twist history around to suit their ends.