Thursday, 5 August 2010

More on Jones vs Rivero

I'm enjoying this. I'm enjoying the troofers finally having to confront the fact anti-semitism is a big issue within 911 Troof and US Patriot Movement, etc.

I applaud Alex Jones for once. Seemingly he's taken a stand against the quite extreme anti-semitism of Mike Rivero - about time too. But is that what has happened? Did Jones sack Rivero for his anti-semitism?

One post has been doing the rounds amongst the pro-Rivero set: it includes a few quotes apparently from Mike Rivero on the topic, and also includes a ludicrous 'reader's response' which is nothing but an Orwellian effort at Newspeak - redefining the meaning of anti-semitism so as to avoid the accusation. Not exactly a rebuttal! lol

Here's Rivero, supposedly, and the assinine Newspeak response from one of his readers:
Announcement from Mike …

“I have just been informed by the Alex Jones show that they are canceling my monthly interviews commencing this coming Tuesday. Imagine my shock and disappointment. No, really, just imagine it!”

A little more info from Mike …

WRH: “I have not made a big deal about the reasons for the move, but in a nutshell, GCN is a reflection of Alex Jones’ views of the world, and more and more our points of view regarding Israel are diverging. I get a lot of email asking why I do not challenge Alex on his defense of Israel, or asking why every time I am on his show Alex feels obligated to have a pro-Israel representative on immediately afterwards to counter the points that I made.

I view the attack by Israel on a US flagged ship and Americans in international waters as an act of war and all who defend said attack as traitors to the USA. Alex holds a different view and I guess the breaking point was his rant in which he said that anyone who is a critic of Israel is a “weak-minded fool”. That made it a personal attack, and I decided it was time to step out of Alex’s shadow and go in a different direction.”
Imagine being too anti-semitic for Jones? Too paranoid for Jones!? Too ridiculous!? *The reader response which has accompanied these quotes around the net appears at the end of this post - the 15 points about semitism.*

I found two recent episodes of Jones' radioshow still at PrisonPlanet - this one from June 1st, where Alex and Rivero talk about the Flotilla episode, and this one, from July 6th where Rivero seemingly blames everything on Israel, and Alex is audibly struggling to follow Rivero's line.

Jones hits Rivero with some very good points, for once, which left Rivero scrabbling around with anti-semitic tat instead of cogent reason: Jones (rightly) said the evidence clearly shows the Israeli soldiers being attacked with knives and bars and also asked why Israel would be trying to start a war between N & S Korea, as Rivero claimed. Rivero's responses were very weak as soon as Alex stated the most appropriate points, which he really seemed to be trying to do in as amiable and non-confrontational fashion possible. (He never likes to disagree with guests - the script is 'everyone agrees, really'.)

Interesting listen (for anything by these people). I am quite impressed with Jones saying what he does at some points - somewhat ridiculing those whom believe Israel/Jews are the cause of all problems in the world, that it's a religion for the haters. Very good stuff, considering it's Alex Jones.

Personally I feel atm that Jones is operating as normal - but critically he now has new ammunition to rebut charges of anti-semitism (and fascism. Though he could easily be a fascist absent chronic anti-semitism, of course) Jones can carry-on saying the same things as ever, interviewing the same anti-semites as ever, promoting Willis Carto, Eustace Mullins, Reverend Pike, AFP etc....and yet can claim he even bust-up with Mike Rivero because of Rivero's anti-semitism.

And Rivero gets the (surely undeserved) benefit of being known as someone 'prepared to sacrifice nothing for his principles'? In that sense it does neither of them any harm, rather it reinforces their respective myths and allows them to carry on doing what they were before, only now they're reinvigorated with increased and more distinct appeal to their respective crowd.

Some questions arise: why didn't Alex notice Rivero's anti-semitism in the beginning? What took so long for Alex to see it? What attracted him to having Rivero on his show in the first place? They have been close enough for a long time - and Alex surely has long known about Rivero's connections with the far-right.

And why has Jones never mentioned anti-semitism around Eustace Mullins? Why hasn't Mullins' Nazi background prevented Jones from idolising him? Jones has called Eustace Mullins 'a modern day Founding Father!' What a difference to Jones' treatment of Rivero? How come?

And why hasn't Jones ever taken a position over Willis Carto? Why has Jones persisted in promoting Carto's various fascist output? Why does Prisonplanet even host pages from Carto's old AFP website when they're dumping Rivero for "differences of opinion"? (If that is what has happened)

Jones has done well to perhaps distance himself from anti-semitism - if that's what he's doing. For once I applaud Alex Jones heartily. Yet Jones is also opening himself to strong charges of hypocrisy - what about Willis Carto, Eustace Mullins, Reverend Pike, David Duke etc? Will all this stuff be purged too? I don't believe it will.

And we still have the as yet unanswered conundrum of why the far-right bootboys find Jones' output so useful and interesting when according to Jones such people "100% oppose" his views and the agenda of Prisonplanet. No Alex - they like you because they agree with and share your views - it's called your constituency, Alex - your audience.

Jones had Rivero on his show to appeal to his audience - maybe to 'tell them things', to 'give his opinion' etc. That's why he was on the show? Why else? Same reason Eustace Mullins, Reverend Pike and the rest of those people feature on Jones show and amongst his ouevre, Because he completely agrees with them and thinks his audience should! That's why he had Rivero on, and why he's now getting rid of him: Jones doesn't have people on his show with whom he disagrees.

So, if Rivero goes, apparently because of "diferences of opinion on editorial line", what about the rest? So long as they aren't explicitly anti-semitic on the show they can continue to be regarded as 'modern-day Founding Fathers'? Even though they're saying the exact same things, only somewhat more euphemistically? [The same charge I lay at Alex Jones - that he employs vague euphemism (such as NWO, bankers, elites) to be understood by much of his audience as "jooos" and (Hitlerite) World Jewish Conspiracy.]

So, Alex's position looks like grandstanding to me: he can carry-on pushing his anti-semitic euphemism and promoting Publishers of the PRotocols and Holocaust denial (just as he's always done) whilst now also claiming (and being known) to have 'taken a stand against anti-semitism'. Hardly a real principled position. And Rivero can get the credit from the other wing for refusing to bow to 'Zion'. All's well?

Further dampening the optimism aroused by the possibility of a real discussion on this in 911 Truth we have Prisonplanet already deleting forum threads mentioning the Rivero affair. It's understandable that they might not wish to allow a flamefest about it, but if it is really an issue about editorial policy over anti-semitism - and about the Troof Movements position on it - isn't it a discussion that needs having? If Prisonplanet really do see it as such an important and potentially divisive issue shouldn't they be embracing the opportunity to make their position clear? Shouldn't they be delineating the scope and content of their differences with anti-semitism? To suppress discussion about it seems to reveal a lack of will to properly address the issues, though it isn't impossible to imagine other reasons for it.

Maybe there really are other reasons for the split. Personal issues? Alex has plenty. Neither Jones or Rivero seem especially interested in hearing any opinion outside of their own conspiracist straitjackets. Once such people disagree, it's going to be tough to reconcile them?

Then there's commercial reasons? Whom would wish to advertise on anything Rivero touched? (Or Jones!) Of course, as Rivero's groupies tell it this is a result of - and proof of - Jones' servitude to supposed 'Zio-money' and 'Zio-media' (in the Rivero vernacular at least) [Funny how the influence of others is so malign, yet the influence of 911 Troof Movement so benevolent? It's a common-enough protest of the powerless - one given expression in 911 Troof on the vehicle of anti-semitism. The Troof Movement and anti-semitism both place great emphasis on 'influence' - media ownership, political intrigue, corporate sponsorship etc. They even say "There's a war on for your mind!" But if we are to believe the various assertions and premises of Rivero and Jones' paranoid rantings, then it's a war that has already been lost - long ago. We have tyranny, thought-control, mass manipulation, false history as facts, supposedly. Such is 'influence'! This reminds me of one Umberto Eco's 'Ways to Spot a Blackshirt': the enemy must be wholly powerful and accomplished whilst alternating at the same time witht he idea that the enemy is also weak and fatally flawed. Both Jones and Rivero employ this exact rhetorical dualism. ]

Umberto puts it better than I (no shit!)

Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers of Ur-Fascism must also be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.
That's a reassuring last line and one I've held to for some time.

Just for the record, here's the 'reader comment' which has been attached to Rivero's comments in that post that has been doing the rounds. The points were originally posted at WRH, apparently.
From a comment at WRH …

READER: With all of the “anti-semitic” accusations being thrown around lately, it might be wise to try and define just what “semitism” really is so that we can be sure not to be “anti-semitic”.

1) If “semitism” is stealing your neighbor’s land, destroying his house and imprisoning and torturing his family, then yes, I am anti-semitic.

2) If “semitism” is committing terrible acts of violence and framing someone else for them, then yes, I am anti-semitic.

3) If “semitism” is compromising the USA government through blackmail and other threats, then yes, I am anti-semitic.

4) If “semitism” is imprisoning millions of improvised and brutalized people, cutting off all basic necessities for life, then yes, I am antisemitic.

5) If “semitism” is taking billions in aid from the USA and then murdering Americans with impunity, then yes, I am anti-semitic.

6) If “semitism” is ignoring all UN Resolutions critical of you and then using the same UN to raise trumped-up charges against an INNOCENT nation, then yes, I am anti-semitic.

7) If “semitism” is coercing the USA government and fooling the American people into attacking an INNOCENT nation, costing millions of innocent lives, including American soldiers, then yes, I am anti-semitic.

8) If “semitism” is attacking unarmed humanitarian ships in INTERNATIONAL waters, murdering at least nine people, including an American, shot FOUR times in the head, then yes, I am anti-semitic.

9) If “semitism” is thinking that you are a master and superior race that has to answer to NO one, then yes, I am anti-semitic.

10) If “semitism” is taking American tax dollars and then sptting in America’s face, then yes, I am anti-semitic.

11) If “semitism” is suppressing any and all discussion of high crimes against humanity then yes, I am anti-semitic.

12) If “semitism” is constant lying and deception to achieve a goal that is illegal and immoral then yes, I am anti-semitic.

13) If “semitism” is arming yourself to the teeth, threatening other nations with attack AND attacking other nations because they are supposedly armed to the teeth and threatening you, then yes, I am anti-semitic.

14) If “semitism” is staging 911 with the help of traitorous Americansin high positions of power, murdering over 3,000 innocent Americans so that the USA will attack your “enemies” blamed for doing 911(and in the process blackmailing those same officials who helped you pull of 911!) then yes, I am anti-semitic.

15) If “semitism” is calling anyone critical of you or revealing of your actions “anti-semitic” then yes. I am anti-semitic.

Of course, these are not the real definitions of semitism, but “semitism” has become the cloak to shield crimes against humanity! But one thing is clear to me- those throwing this accusation around are the ones who are REALLY dragging REAL semtism though the mud! They are the real anti-semites!
Pathetic, isn't it? I need only have posted this line:
[we need to] try and define just what “semitism” really is so that we can be sure not to be “anti-semitic”.
This is a familiar tactic of anti-semitism, and of totalitarianism everywhere - it's Orwellian Newspeak: to escape a thoroughly warranted accusation, the meaning of the accusation is changed. That's what these 15 points are doing - it's what the Halfway 'discussion' about anti-semitism was doing - it's what so many anti-semites do -- slither away from the charge. It's disgusting and pathetic.


socrates said...

Alex Jones is being a hypocrite, if indeed he has let Rivero go because of his stance on the Joooos. Like you say, if he's going to go that route, he still has a lot more housecleaning to do.

He's definitely going for the conspiracy theory market. His problem has been that the Jooos did it crowd is a minority. It may be a sizeable one, but I don't think it matches the one that includes people averse to anti-semitism. Rivero isn't subtle enough. He turned into a tomato can for the few of us who said enough is enough.

There are only so many Larry's, imho, in relation to those who don't but into the evil Jooos meme. That schtick has run its course, and anyone like Rivero who gets too close to Jooooo hatred becomes poison for the regular guy conspiracy theorists. I mean just look at Jeff Rense. Has anyone become more irrlevant than him?

Mike Rivero is finished. All he has left for readers are those into Stormfront. Tinoire's gone. The overt Jew haters have been neutralised. Good job, TLNL. Despite what donkeytale wrote at DFQ2 about how insignificant your stuff has been, that it's been a waste of time, I disagree. There have only been so many of us who spoke truth to idiotic Jew hate.

Those people do not speak for the Palestinians. They are their worst enemies.

I think Rivero is a proverbial disinfo agent. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that has piled up. Jones comes across more as being a huckster. It'd be interesting to know how much those guys earn from their blogging. Jones probably does all right for himself. I don't see Rivero making much money. So I basically think Jones can fund himself, while with Rivero I wonder if he gets outside revenue for his blogging, like say Hal Turner did.

Martin Firestein said...

Socrates...where would I find this information about Rivero. I honestly can't explain why, but I have a much easier time believing the president of Iran doesn't truly believe the Holocaust didn't happen but would willingly say that to attract/keep support; but I'm not so sure about Rivero. I'm really tempted to believe that he truly does believe all the Jew hatred he spouts/links to. One of the jew haters out there, and I take what they say with a grain of salt anyway, mentioned Rivero's links to the wife of Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel. If true, it would explain an awful lot...

socrates said...

You'll have to be more specific, Marty. There's tons of stuff at my two blogs. TLNL has come up with things. A few others have also.

Rivero's been around a long, long time. I found a post of his to an online user group or whatever and his email address was from McDonnell Douglas, the largest military contractor at that time. No one seems to give a shit about anything I have come up with, so it gets kind of stale for me to try to reinvent the wheel.

TLNL found a contact address for Rivero to some company. I looked into it. It's tied to some disinfo whench who peddles disinfo books. One of the people involved was working for the Justice Department.

Tinoire's an odd one. She claims to be a commie, but she has voted for Ron Brown and claims to have worked for military intelligence. I can track you down some links and whatnot. It becomes work. But I'll do it.

No one gives a shit about hard core proof of internet fakery. The thing is an utter sewer. One such gutter slimeball is Brad Friedman of BradBlog. He has been put together by a pathological liar named Brett Kimberlin, known as the Speedway Bomber. He was the prime suspect for the murder of a Grandmom who didn't like Brett's relationship with her adolescent granddaughter nor Brett's illegal activities. Brad peddles all kinds of nonsense, easily provable nonsense. Yet he keeps plugging away as if nothing has been exposed. He had a neonazi moderator. I exposed her. TLNL exposed the shitheads she blogs with. Brad got rid of her. I think Jones got rid of Rivero because of people like me and TLNL digging things up and putting them in perspective. Not crazy conspiracy crap. Pure facts and common sense.

socrates said...

Ron Paul not Ron Brown sorry.

the_last_name_left said...

It's funny how vicious the two groups are being towards each other - it's like war has broken out. Internecine conflict is always the ugliest? haha.

And suddenly every one of Rivero's supporters "always knew" Jones was a fat, loudmouthed They weren't saying that a few weeks ago, lol.

So what of the "truth movement" now? Is it a broad church, or not? Doesn't seem so atm. Funny how such a (self claimed) non-ideological group can have such a vicious disagreement?

Hopefully it will be a lesson to the conspiracists that maintaining a common front is extremely difficult. Recognising this, maybe they'll recognise their own analysis lacks an appreciation of it: their analysis assumes a perfectly integrated and united, monolithic and massive conspiracy, the NWO. They assume "the NWO" is all about one thing, and is an integrated network working towards its fulfillment. Silly.

the_last_name_left said...

and they believe all disagreement is manufactured. Again, silly, imo.

HAving said that, this split does have something about it that makes it seem orchestrated somehow.

Both sides will be denounicng the other as COINTELPRO?

SOTT are right behind Rivero, seemingly. Anyone defending Jones over at SOTT is dismissed as 'already ponerised'. What a crock of shit, that is. Wow - totalitarian? Anyone who disagrees with SOTT is 'ponerised' ie deluded, hypnotised, improperly socialised, whatever.

SOTT stinks. They're currently promoting the Protocols, but with a twist - they say the anti-semitism of the Protocols was a ruse - that the PRotocols are actually true, only not about Jews, but about Sociopaths instead....the PRotocols prove ponerolgy not anti-semitism according to SOTT.

[Ponerism/ponerolgy/ponerisation are some bullshit thesis basically claiming that what Alex Jones calls NWO is the psychopathology of the leadership class - that the leadership class is formed off of psychopathology itself. What a crock.]

socrates said...

The disagreement does seem manufactured, although granted it is kind of funny how the conspiracy theory freaks love to throw around the word cointelpro all the time.

I think there is internet cointelpro. Hal Turner is proof of it. I believe he is just the tip of the iceberg. There's other proof too, solid proof, but I won't get into it here for this blog isn't really into uncovering that. I'm not saying it's an easy topic to figure out. But there are most certainly spy factories produced by the Military-Industrial Complex.

That Sign of the Times place is a joke. I don't even go there. I am so turned off by stupid blogs with a conspiracy theory slant. I don't mind one like this which covers it. But the ones like Rivero, Jones, and Laura what's her name and her cult background make my stomach churn.

I'm actually more interested in your new post concerning Rivero talking about you or something. I don't know what it's about. I just saw the title. I'll read that and give my humble reaction. That stuff I find fun. I love it when you get down and dirty with internet fakes. I like it when anyone does that. And I'm not saying you truly get down and dirty, just that you check into things and give your two pence or shillings or however ye call it across the pond.

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